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You are here: BAILII >> Databases >> England and Wales High Court (Administrative Court) Decisions >> Uddin, R (on the application of) v London Borough Of Tower Hamlets [1999] EWHC Admin 400 (5th May, 1999) URL: http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/Admin/1999/400.html Cite as: 32 HLR 391, [1999] EWHC Admin 400, (2000) 32 HLR 391 |
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1. In
these proceedings the applicants challenge the lawfulness of the housing
allocation scheme operated by the London Borough of Tower Hamlets, as well as
challenging the specific decisions made in their own cases. The applicants are
secure tenants or, in Mr Uddin's case, an assured tenant of the Respondent,
which is a local housing authority.
2.
There are three applications for judicial review before me, but by
agreement they have been heard together and I shall deal with all three
applications in this judgment.
3.
It is not in dispute that each applicant and his or her family occupy at
present housing accommodation within the Respondent Borough which is unsuitable
for their needs. As an existing tenant of the Respondent Council, each
applicant has applied for a transfer within the Council's housing stock, so as
to obtain more suitable accommodation. The Council operates an allocations
policy for existing tenants who want a transfer, this being entitled
"Allocations Policy For Council Tenants Wanting to Move". It first took effect
on 1st April 1997 but has been revised a number of times since then. Perhaps,
inevitably, it seeks to achieve a system whereby an order of priority can be
determined for applications made to the Council for transfer. I say "perhaps
inevitably" because it is not in issue that there is an inadequate supply of
housing of appropriate types and size within the Borough to meet the demand for
it. Consequently, the Council operates a waiting list.
4. Reference
is made on behalf of the Applicants to Part VI of the Housing Act 1996 and the
Code of Guidance produced by the Secretary of State under the auspices of
section 169 of that Act. It is, of course, clear from section 159(5) that the
provisions of Part VI of the Act do not apply to the allocation of housing to
those who are already secure tenants or assured tenants of the housing
authority and in consequence the Code of Guidance does not apply directly in
such cases. But I have been referred to a recent decision of Richards J in the
R
-v- London Borough of Islington ex parte Reilly and Mannix
,
a judgment dated 2nd October 1998 (unreported) which was a case dealing with a
scheme for applications by secure tenants for transfer to other accommodation.
6. There
is no doubt that a housing authority has a discretion as to how it exercises
its power to allocate housing to existing secure tenants who wish to move and
as to how it arrives at an order of priority amongst them. On the other hand,
that is not an unfettered discretion. Its exercise will have to reflect the
purposes for which the power to hold such property as landlord exists, as well
as the normal principles of public law. One notes that in the Code of Guidance
the Secretary of State advises that:
7.
That advice must be seen as applicable to decisions made on transfer
applications and schemes, as well as to those dealing with applications and
schemes falling directly under Part VI of the Act, and Mr Rutledge, who appears
for the Respondent, does not dissent from that.
8.
The provisions of Part VI also require that a scheme for the applications
falling within that part of the Act secures reasonable preference for people in
a number of categories, including households consisting of or including someone
with a particular need for settled accommodation on medical or welfare grounds
(section 167(2)(e)). That statutory provision does not apply as such in the
present cases, but the Respondent Council has, in its allocation policy for
transfer applications, sought to reflect such considerations. Having
acknowledged those matters, it has to be recognised that Parliament did not
think fit to apply the provisions of Part VI of the Act to transfer
applications by existing secure or assured tenants. Any guidance to be
obtained by reference to those statutory provisions or to the contents of the
Code can only be in very broad terms and on the basis that they may help to
identify relevant considerations. For example, the Code states at paragraph 5.7
that:
9. One
would expect any rational transfer scheme to seek to observe the same
principle, at any rate where other factors, such as the requirements of the
efficient management of the stock, did not militate against it.
11.
That provision remains in force, even though section 22 of that Act dealing
with the allocation of housing stock has been repealed. However, as was
emphasised in
R
-v- Canterbury City Council ex parte Gillespie
(1986) 19 HLR 7, any policies or rules must not be so rigid that they exclude
the consideration of individual cases. That too is a proposition which follows
from the normal principles of administrative law.
12. In
the form in which it stood in January 1998, the policy was one based on what
was described as a Targets Group and Points System. Transfer Applicants were
assigned to one of five Target Groups, those being known as Category 1 Health,
Decants, Under-Occupiers, Managements and General.
13. At
six monthly intervals a certain proportion of the anticipated housing vacancies
were allocated to each Target Group.
15.
Those are the target groups. Within each Target Group a points scheme
operated. As the policy stated at paragraph 11.1:
16. There
then follows a table, according to which points were awarded for overcrowding,
with an increasing number of points for greater degrees of overcrowding; for
opposite sexes sharing a bedroom, which at that date simply awarded 25 points
to the tenant where a person of ten years of age or more (other than partners)
had to share with someone of the opposite sex; for children sharing a bedroom
with parents; and for a number of other categories or features, including an
allowance for each year on the waiting list. Amongst those other categories was
one entitled: "MEDICAL POINTS (AWARDED BY THE HEALTH ADVISOR)". This read as
follows:
17. It
is not in dispute that those are fixed numbers of points awarded if the
application fell into the category in question and were not ones allowing any
higher or lower number of points in that category.
18.
There were also specific health criteria in a separate document. These
defined which households would qualify to come within one of the four medical
categories. It will suffice to give just one example for present purposes:
Category One, the most urgent group at that time, was defined as:
19. Each
of the other categories was defined in a similar way, in the sense of referring
to "any household that includes a person with..." As one would expect, the
characteristics of that person then differ from category to category.
20.
Subsequently, in March 1998, certain charges were made to the policy. In
particular, a new medical priority category was introduced to apply in
exceptional circumstances and producing a total of 500 points. It was
described as "Health Management" and was defined in a new set of criteria so as
to apply to:
21.
Finally, in March 1999, there was a further change made to reflect the
decision in
R
-v- Lambeth London Borough Council ex parte Ashley
(1996) 29 HLR 385. I shall need to refer to this case more fully later in the
judgment, but for present purposes it is enough to note that the respondent to
the present proceedings changed its policy in respect of the number of points
to be awarded where a household included persons of the opposite sex sharing a
bedroom. It did so in such a way as to reflect the number of persons in the
household who were in that situation. Previously, as I have indicated, the
policy had simply awarded 25 points whenever such a situation arose in a
household, irrespective of the number of persons involved.
22. Mr
Uddin currently lives in a two-bedroomed flat on the fourth floor of a six
storey block. He shares that accommodation with his wife and five children,
the oldest of whom is 12. Three of the children are sons and two are daughters,
including one called Sultana Begum who is now aged 11.
23.
Mr Uddin first applied for a transfer in March 1993, but for present
purposes it is enough to note that in 1995 three of the children, including
Sultana Begum, were diagnosed as suffering from Haemoglobin Thalassemia, a
blood disorder, and chronic anaemia with a reduced exercise tolerance. Not
only were the family located in a fourth floor flat, but there was evidence
that damp and overcrowding in the flat was aggravating the health problems.
24.
On 29th March 1995, the authority upgraded the household's medical priority
to 200 points, putting Mr Uddin into what was at that time the top medical
category, Category 1 and so into Target Group, Category 1, Health.
25.
In July 1997, Sultana Begum was diagnosed as suffering from acute
lymphoblastic leukaemia. This information was considered by the Authority's
Health Advisor to the Housing Department, Mr Ian Cruickshank, a registered
general nurse, and in September or October 1997 he recommended that the
Applicant, Mr Uddin, should be treated as within medical Category 1 with 200
points awarded for medical reasons. This, of course, involved no change in the
number of points awarded for medical reasons. As at that date his total points
stood at 355. The Health Advisor repeated the same recommendation in
September 1998 (a year later) by which date his points had grown to 396, mainly
through allowance for the passage of time.
26.
Things changed radically for the Uddin family in December 1998, because Mr
Cruickshank then received advice that Sultana's condition meant that living in
overcrowded accommodation could be life-threatening for her. He recommended
that an award under the "Health Management" Category, brought in in March 1998,
should be made. That was accepted, and the medical points were increased to
500, putting Mr Uddin and his family at the top of the list for rehousing. Not
surprisingly, he is content with this relatively recent development, which has
taken place since these proceedings were commenced. However, Mr Reeder, who
has appeared for all three applicants, relies upon the history of Mr Uddin's
case to demonstrate what is said to be the irrationality of the Council's policy.
27.
Mr Tahid and his family occupy a two bedroom flat on the second floor of a
block. His family consists of himself, his wife and their five children, four
sons and a daughter, aged 12 or less. He too has applied for a transfer. Mr
Tahid himself suffers from bronchial asthma and epilepsy, and on 26th March
1997 his medical points were increased to 100, that is to say, putting the
household into Medical Category 2. According to a letter from the health
authority dated 6th April 1998, this was done because of Mr Tahid's own
respiratory disease, and that has been confirmed by counsel in the course of
argument. This applicant fell into the category group entitled "General".
28.
However, it then became clear that the health of the children in the family
were suffering. In a Children in Need Assessment dated 18th September 1998, it
was reported that two of the sons had asthma and another suffered from
nocturnal bedwetting. The Health Advisor reported on 24th September 1998 that
"all the children's psychological health and development is being compromised
by the current housing". He recommended, however, that the applicant remain in
Medical Category 2, with 100 points still being awarded on this score. Mr
Tahid currently has a total of 290 points.
29.
Jacqueline Curtis lives in a fourth floor, two-bedroomed flat with her four
children. The eldest, Roy, is aged 16; the youngest, a daughter, is aged 2. One
of the daughters, Jade, who is now 7 suffers from asthma; Roy has been
recognised as having special educational needs and Miss Curtis herself has been
diagnosed as suffering from depression. The flat is damp, and the three older
children have to share a bedroom. The Applicant first sought a transfer in
1993, although not then on medical grounds. On 30th July 1997, an award of 100
points for medical Category 2 was made by the Council. A report by a social
worker in August 1998 recorded that Jade's asthmatic problems seemed to have
greatly improved and that the children generally appeared to be in good health.
It noted that the main problem was the overcrowding for which the tenant had
been awarded points. This applicant was and is in the General Target Group.
30. Two
arguments are advanced on behalf of the Applicants. The main one is that the
Council's scheme is irrational, in that once one person in a household comes
into a particular medical category, no allowance is made for the fact that
others in the same household come into that category or have other health
problems. If, as originally in the Uddin case, one member of the household
qualifies for Category 1 then 200 points are awarded. No more points can be
obtained even if three people qualify for that category. The system, submits Mr
Reeder, imposes a ceiling. In the same way, once the Tahid family had been
awarded 100 points as a Category 2 household because of Mr Tahid's respiratory
problems, it made no difference that the children were found to have health
problems, in the shape of asthma and bedwetting. To ignore these elements is,
it is said, to leave relevant considerations out of account.
31.
Mr Reeder relies on both the
Ashley
and
Reilly
and Marrix
decisions as demonstrating the irrationality of ignoring the number of people
in a household who are affected by a particular problem. He argues for what he
has called a "composite assessment".
32.
His supplementary argument is that social factors, such as the behavioural
effects of overcrowding, are not taken into account in the award of medical
points because of the ceiling approach. Nor, he says, are they reflected in
the allowance for overcrowding, because that is based simply on the numbers of
people in the accommodation, a purely numerical approach. He points in
particular to the Curtis case as an illustration of this, although he contends
that it also arises in the Tahid application.
33.
I say at once, that I see no force in this supplementary argument. If
overcrowding leads to health problems or aggravates such problems, then
according to the allocations policy those consequences will be reflected in the
award of points on health grounds (subject that is to the main argument about
the numbers of people in a household with medical problems). Thus the document
setting out "Criteria For Rehousing On Health Grounds" has a note which reads:
34. Of
course, there may be behavioural consequences of overcrowding which do not
qualify for consideration for an award of points on health grounds. But those
seem to me to be the type of effects which one would readily expect from
overcrowding, such as increased tension in the family, difficulties experienced
by children in doing homework and so on, and it is because of such matters
that points are awarded for overcrowding in the first place. It is true that
such points are awarded on a numerical basis, reflecting the degree of
overcrowding, but it is not unreasonable for a local housing authority to take
the view that that is an appropriate way of reflecting the non-health problems
caused or aggravated by overcrowding. It would not be surprising if such
problems became greater as the degree of overcrowding increased, and that is
what the allocation policy reflects on this aspect.
35.
This subsidiary argument therefore adds nothing to the main argument about
the alleged failure of the policy to reflect the number of people in the
household with health problems. It is to that main issue I now turn.
36.
In effect, three arguments are advanced on this on behalf of the respondent
council. First, it is contended that the allocations policy does provide for a
composite approach to the award of medical points. Mr Rutledge says that a
particular award may be the result of a single member in the household having a
medical need which qualifies for that award or it may be the result of an
assessment of the composite medical needs of more that one person in the
household. In support of that latter proposition, he draws attention to three
documents all relating to the application by Miss Curtis. The first is a form
completed by the Health Advisor on 29th July 1997, which does indeed record the
health problems suffered by Miss Curtis, her son Roy and her daughter Jade.
That does not seem to me to advance the argument about how medical points are
actually awarded. It seems to be more a factual summary of the household's
medical problems, which would need to be known whatever method was being used
to arrive at an award. Secondly, my attention has been drawn to a passage in
the affirmation by the Health Advisor, Mr Cruickshank. At paragraph 6, Mr
Cruickshank states:
37. Again,
that again seems to me to be an ambiguous statement about whether an award is
made on a composite basis, particularly given the final sentence. What, one is
bound to ask, happens if more than one member of the household is effectively
housebound or if a further member has some medical problem? Indeed, Mr
Cruickshank goes on in the next paragraph to say:
38. The
third document referred to is a letter dated 6th April 1998 from the
Allocations Manager which says, in part:
39.
On the face of it, nothing could be clearer. But the affidavits and
affirmations filed on behalf of the respondent repeatedly make the point that
to award points in respect of individual members of a household could produce
inequitable results, such as a family with several members each suffering from
a mild condition taking priority over a person who is housebound or severely
ill and requires urgent rehousing. That does not suggest that the Council is
operating a composite approach.
40.
To resolve this apparent conflict it is necessary to look at the policy
itself which is under challenge, and in particular the detailed Health Criteria
in their latest form. Thus, "CATEGORY THREE: 50 POINTS" is defined as:
41. An
example is then given of a person with asthma who has recurrent exacerbations
and is living in significantly overcrowded conditions.
42. An
example is then given of a person experiencing great difficulty in accessing
their home or essential facilities within the house, ie, leaving and entering
the property if the lift is out of order, but they are not housebound.
43.
The example is given, amongst a number of others, of a person who is
housebound or effectively so.
44.
Finally, the new top category Health Management (500 points) is one the
qualifications for which have already been set out earlier in this judgment.
Four ways of qualifying are set out there, such as being terminally ill or
where there is an immediate risk to life or limb.
45.
It can be seen that to enter one of these categories it is both sufficient
and necessary for
one
member of the household to meet the particular definition. Thus, the household
will qualify for Category 2 and receive 100 points if it has one member with a
permanent and substantial disability whose housing is significantly affecting
them, as in the example by experiencing great difficulty in accessing their
home, but are not housebound. The household will remain in that category with
the same number of points even if two or three members of it have the same
problem. No more points will be awarded. It is only if one or more members are
judged to have their health problem
severely
affected by their living conditions that the household qualifies under
Category 1, for example, because one or more of them is housebound.
46.
Mr Rutledge argues that these are subjective and vague judgments to be made
by the Council's officers, but one has to assume that they are judgments made
honestly and in accordance with the criteria. The position becomes even clearer
with the division between Category 1 and the top Health Management Category.
Once again, if the family has
a
member
who is housebound, it qualifies for Category 1 and 200 points. It will receive
no further medical points even if three members of the household are
housebound, unless and until it can said that one of the criteria for the top
category is met, such as one person being terminally ill.
47.
So the policy itself is clear. One person in the household who meets the
criteria for a given category brings the household the stated number of medical
points. No more medical points are added because further members of the family
qualify for the same category, or indeed for any lesser category.
48.
This would seem to be what happened in the case of the Tahid family, where
there was an award of 100 points originally, because of Mr Tahid's respiratory
disease, and a later recording of the additional health problems of the
children had no effect on the number of point enjoyed. Unless one member of the
family can pull them up into a higher points category because of his or her
more serious condition, a household will remain in a medical category,
irrespective of the number of people who qualify for inclusion in that category.
49.
I, therefore, cannot accept the respondent's first argument, namely that
its policy provides for a composite assessment of the household's medical
needs. It does not.
50.
The second contention advanced is that the apparent rigidity in the policy
is capable of being overcome by the exercise of discretion left to officers by
the policy. In this context, Mr Rutledge draws my attention to two ways in
which additional points can be awarded under the policy. First is by an award
of 50 points for what is called "less serious management priority". In this
way, it is said, the position of a household in the queue can be improved at
the officers' discretion. The other way of achieving that is said to be by
recategorising a household from their existing Target Group, whether Category 1
Medical or General to the "Managements" Target Group. The Head of Area Housing
Services has a discretion to include a tenant in this Target Group if he agrees
that the tenant should be moved for "any other reason".
51.
In dealing with this topic of discretion, Mr Rutledge seeks to distinguish
the decision in
Reilly
-v- Mannix
,
where Richards J did not regard the discretion there existing as providing the
answer to the lack of any possibility of a composite assessment. The learned
judge said this:
52.
Mr Rutledge contends that the discretion available in that case was too
arbitrary and was not sufficiently targeted towards some specific housing issue.
53.
It is true that the Tower Hamlets' Scheme does, to some extent, seek to
focus the exercise of the Management priority discretion, in that it gives in
its policy documents examples of the situations which would merit the addition
of "urgent management priority". The examples consist of cases of real or
threatened physical violence, persistent harassment, serious neighbour disputes
and ones where rehousing will achieve additional family support, no doubt by
moving nearer to other family members. There is no suggestion in the documents
that such awards are made or would be made to deal with the presence of more
than one person in a household with a particular health problem. Nor do the
facts of the present three cases indicate any consideration of an award on such
a basis. Indeed, the evidence is to the contrary. For example, in the Uddin
case, the review of that family's position was carried out in October 1998 at a
time when Sultana Begum's leukaemia was known about and when two of other
children were suffering from thalassemia and chronic asthma. The result of the
review was a memorandum from the Assistant Head of Area Housing Services dated
5th October 1998 which, in its material part, reads as follows:
54.
No evidence has been put before the Court of any instance, whether in
relation to these three applicants or otherwise, where the discretion has been
exercised so as to reflect the problem of more that one member of the family
qualifying under a particular medical category. In all the circumstances, I
cannot accept that if the stated policy is irrational, it can be saved because
of the existence of a discretion under the provisions referred to. That
discretion may be more focused than the one in
Reilly
-v- Mannix
,
but its focus is not directed towards the problem raised in these applications.
Beyond those matters on which it is focused, it becomes, as in
Reilly
-v- Mannix
,
an arbitrary exercise of discretion.
55.
Finally, it is argued on behalf of the Council that the policy is not
irrational and that it would produce anomalies to multiply an award of health
points by the number of persons in the household falling into a given category.
Reliance is placed on the familiar passage from Lord Brightman's speech in
Ex
parte Puhlhofer
[1986] AC 484 at 518 where his Lordship emphasised that certain matters are
best left by the courts to the judgment of local housing authorities.
56. Mr
Rutledge contends that
Reilly
-v- Mannix
was a very different case from the present ones, since there the authority
awarded only limited points for additional problems.
57.
I accept that a scheme of this kind is only open to challenge if it can be
said to be irrational or if it offends against other basic principles of
administrative law, such as failing to take into account relevant
considerations. It was on such a basis that the scheme in
Ex
parte Ashley
was struck down. There the authority's policy provided that where persons of
the opposite sex over a certain age had to share a bedroom, 20 points would be
awarded, irrespective of the number of individuals involved. The Court held
that that was illogical and irrational, and took no account of the number of
persons affected. Tucker J said:
58.
In a similar way in
Reilly
-v- Mannix
,
the court held that the method of calculating points was incapable of fairly
assessing need, and one of the two respects in which it failed was because it:
59. I
emphasis those last few words. Those cases simply make the obvious point that a
household's need is greater the more people are experiencing a particular
problem, whether it be sharing a bedroom with a person of the opposite sex,
overcrowding or health problems. A rational allocations policy should make
allowance for that, because otherwise households with markedly different needs
are not distinguished. A household with three people suffering from a
particular medical condition to a given degree has a greater degree of need, so
far as health grounds go, than a household with only one member in the same
condition. To award those households the same number of medical points is
irrational, and such a scheme fails to take into account the needs for
rehousing on medical grounds of those additional members of the family. They
are disregarded. On both those grounds of irrationality and failure to take
into account material considerations, I find the current policy unlawful.
60.
That does not mean that an allocations scheme has simply to multiply the
number of points in a given category by the number of persons in the household
who fall within it. That could give rise to anomalies. No doubt, some form of
sliding scale would be more appropriate,, as has been done in the case of
persons of opposite sexes sharing a bedroom, where the original policy awarded
25 points for a household where this happened, but where the amended policy
reflecting the
Ashley
decision awards an additional five points for each additional person above two
persons who share such a bedroom. There may be a number of ways of building
into the policy some numerical recognition of the number of persons in a
household in a particular medical category. It is for the housing authority to
frame the appropriate policy and not for this Court to do so. What I am in no
doubt about is that the policy in its present form is unlawful insofar as it
fails to make adequate provision for a composite assessment of housing needs on
medical grounds of households where an application to transfer has been made.
61.
I turn lastly to the topic of relief. Subject to anything counsel wish to
say, I would propose to make a declaration along the lines indicated. Beyond
that, relief in the individual cases before me must differ. Mr Uddin does not
now seek any quashing of the decisions relating to him, so I shall grant no
further relief beyond the declaration in his case. In Mr Tahid's case, I am
satisfied that the Council has failed to act rationally to take into account
all relevant considerations. The decisions by the respondent dated 9th April
1997 and 16th April 1998 relating to him will be quashed. I regard
mandamus
as being inappropriate. It is for the respondent to reassess his family's needs
in a proper fashion.
62.
In the case of Miss Curtis, I am not persuaded that the family's problems
have been inadequately assessed, especially given the latest medical evidence.
The Council have reflected the problems caused by overcrowding to an adequate
degree by the points awarded for overcrowding and some allowance does, in fact,
seem to have been made for the extent of the medical problems in the family,
even though this does not accord with the formal stated policy. I, therefore,
am not prepared to quash the Council's decisions in that case or to grant any
relief beyond the declaration to which I have referred.
64. MR
REEDER: My Lord, perhaps I can hand up a draft order that was prepared, which
my learned friend has seen.
67. MR
REEDER: My Lord, the social factors are the only material difference. My Lord,
that was included on the basis primarily of the Applicant, Jacqueline Curtis
and her son Roy, and the issues which pertain to him. My Lord will recall----
68. MR
JUSTICE KEENE: As far as I am concerned, I am not prepared to include the words
"and social" for the reasons I have indicated in the judgment.
69. MR
REEDER: For that reason I do not pursue it. My Lord, if we take those words
out, one hopes the draft declaration reflects your Lordship's judgment.
71. MR
JUSTICE KEENE: It clearly has to be read in the context of this case that both
parties understand what it means on that footing and I am hope it is tolerably
clear. Very well, I am prepared to make a declaration in those terms and I
will initial that.
72. MR
REEDER: My Lord, so far as
certiorari
is concerned, we have heard from your Lordship's judgment that two can come out
in any event.
74. MR
REEDER: My Lord, as far as the costs are concerned, I understand this is a new
form of words, a detail assessment. My Lord, in far as the declaration is good
for all three Applicants, my Lord, they are all legally aided and I seek the
costs in relation to all three, although I hear what your Lordship says about
Jacqueline Curtis and the assessment in that case.
76. MR
RUTLEDGE: My Lord, yes. In my submission the appropriate order would be no
order as to costs for this reason: the main plank of the Applicants' challenge
on paper at least was that points should be aggregated where more than one
member of the family qualified under a particular category of housing need,
that is plain from the letters before action, the Notice of Motion and the
affidavit. On that issue, that was plainly a serious issue so far as the
authority was concerned, my Lord has seen how it responded in its evidence. My
Lord, the local authority has been successful albeit that its scheme has been
declared unlawful for other reasons. In my respectful submission, the fair
order on balance would be no order as to costs.
77. MR
JUSTICE KEENE: Thank you. I need not trouble you, Mr Reeder. Although the
ground may have shifted slightly in the course of argument, I do not regard
that as being a fundamental shift. The matter has been argued largely on the
basis which I have dealt with in the course of my judgment, and on that basis,
on the fundamental issue of the unlawfulness of the authority's scheme, the
authority has lost.
80.
MR JUSTICE KEENE: Very well, there will be an order then that the respondent
pay the applicants' costs, it will be on the standard basis, as I gather it now
is. I do not know if the order needs to make express provision for that, no
doubt the associate will tell me if it does, but that is what I intend and you
are quite right it is to be determined by detailed assessment as it is now
called if not agreed.